Trump

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Jez
 
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Re: Trump

Postby Jez » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:52 pm

No judgement here whatsoever ashersons and I really mean that but we're you a Trump voter?

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Re: Trump

Postby Asherons » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:17 pm

Y'all know about the Bundy ranch stand off? Small example of armed men holding their ground over perceived injustice and winning. There are others in recent years as well.

It's not necessarily about fighting the entire military force of government, it's holding out until things change, and having the capability to do so.

And no I did not vote for Donald Trump, I went 3rd party as I also would never vote for Hillary Clinton.

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Solitaire
 
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Re: Trump

Postby Solitaire » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:19 pm

Asherons wrote:I go to a high school 5 days a week and don't worry about a mass shooting, they are rare.


Rare in relation to what?!? Holy shit, dude - our country is the only one that has ANY mass school shootings on any regular basis.

But you're right. The only way to combat this, in America, is by arming fucking every-goddam-body. Students should have guns too, why the fuck not? I'll be school nurse/crack commando, should pay well.

You're a 2nd Amendment proponent, you say? Do you understand what that amendment says? Not what the NRA, and you, apparently, want it to say, but what it decrees? Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say that we as individual citizens should be allowed combat-capable weapons? That an 18-year-old can buy such a weapon, without a waiting period?

I am beyond pissed off at this point. I'm going to step out of this sub-section of the Trump topic.
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Re: Trump

Postby Asherons » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:31 pm

2nd amendment states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So I see it as if a militia needs to be formed for any reason in any area its local citizens should be able to fill ranks and use their personal arms.

And that it's a right for citizens to keep and own personal weapons capable to create a "well regulated militia"

Again, I'm not trying to upset anyone I am just sharing my opinion on the matter. I think guns are useful tools for hunting, defense, recreation, and in the unlikely case of defense of the nation vs foreigner or local threats.

And yes they should be used as a last resort. I'm not advocating for shooting up a courthouse cause you got a BS speeding ticket.

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Solitaire
 
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Re: Trump

Postby Solitaire » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:42 pm

I will discuss one more issue in America: mental health. I've worked in the field for 25+ years. Each state deals with this issue differently in relation to weapons. In California, someone that's been flagged with a mental condition (danger to self, others) is not allowed to own a firearm of any type for five years. The person is allowed to dispute this, within the justice system. Plenty of states don't have this sort of set of statutes. States don't communicate between each other regarding background checks - a person in one state that's not allowed to own a firearm can drive to the next state and buy one the same day. It's all a fucking mess.

Okay, just one more question: Explain to me why we are the ONLY country on the whole fucking planet that has this problem with gun violence? Our issues aren't fractions of percents - we own the show, hands down, without question, nobody comes close to the bloodshed that America suffers. Nobody has ever answered this question with any logical response, not ever. Not once. To ignore this fact is some seriously twisted fucking illogical bullshit.

Yes, I'm pissed off. All these motherfuckers that go on and on and on about "gun rights" and the 2nd Amendment and whatnot - have you ever seen the aftermath of a shooting? Have you seen heads opened up and brains on the wall? Heard the wailing of family and loved ones?

Arm all the schools in our county. Spend the goddam billions in dollars to do so. Then shooters with legal AR-15's will go to the mall instead. Now spend billions to turn all malls into armed bunkers. Then the next soft target. And the next. Because it will never end. And the gun manufacturers and politicians that are in their pockets will have their billions in the bank, not giving a shit how it all got there. Insanity.
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Mantis
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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:44 pm

Asherons wrote:Y'all know about the Bundy ranch stand off? Small example of armed men holding their ground over perceived injustice and winning.


No but I just took some time to educate myself on it.

General summary: government has historically owned and managed the land. Government decided to turn an area into a conservation zone to preserve an endangered species of tortoise. Government forced ranchers to sell their land back to the government for this purpose. Mr Bundy, who had always paid his fees for grazing his cattle, decided that he no longer recognised the authority of the federal state powers as it was his "ancestral home" and so refused, didn't renew his licence or pay his fees and so profited quite substantially off the land from the savings he made.

He declared himself a supporter of the Sovereign Citizens Movement (a little on them, note their main belief is "Self-described "sovereign citizens" see themselves as answerable only to their particular interpretation of the common law and as not subject to any government statutes or proceedings.")

Did I mention that he's quite the racist?

Later, after he suggested that "the Negro" would have been better off as a slave than dependent on government subsidies, he was repudiated by some conservative politicians and talk-show hosts who had previously supported him. Many condemned his remarks as racist.


Cue a long legal battle spanning a number of years plus a number of armed standoffs in which on at least one occasion a couple of people got shot. The government ended up dropping a lot of charges against him it seems.

So yeah. That's definitely an example that more clearly demonstrates exactly why your people shouldn't be freely allowed to wield weapons and mobilise in local militias. 'Ancestral home'? What an utter joke. He was just a racist scumbag who didn't want to pay his taxes. Unless there's some intricate details of this case that I happen to be missing of course.

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Re: Trump

Postby Asherons » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:59 pm

Him being a racist is irrelevant. He felt he was basically being taxed off his land and apparently enough people agree with him that they formed a small rebellion and in the end they got government to back off.

If the time ever comes that government overreach in America has gone too far to where the people must form a rebellion then I hope Americans still have the capability to form the well regulated militia, which is supposed to be their right.

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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:05 pm

I don't think that being a racist could ever be regarded as being 'irrelevant'. And the people who agreed with him were members of the Sovereign Citizens Movement, who the FBI regards as domestic terrorists.

They were trying to buy his land off him so that they could protect the environment. Regardless of the specific details, that is hardly the criteria I would expect for a call to arms.

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Re: Trump

Postby Raid » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:59 pm

Asherons wrote:2nd amendment states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I was astonished earlier when I learned that that's all it states. It's only one line, 27 words written more than 200 years ago that have had incredible ramifications for the people and politics of the United States. Given how much discussion and frankly, misery it's caused, I didn't imagine it was anything other than a long document.

Arm all the schools in our county. Spend the goddam billions in dollars to do so. Then shooters with legal AR-15's will go to the mall instead. Now spend billions to turn all malls into armed bunkers. Then the next soft target. And the next. Because it will never end. And the gun manufacturers and politicians that are in their pockets will have their billions in the bank, not giving a shit how it all got there. Insanity.


And that, sadly, is exactly how I see this progressing. If the NRA is calling for schools to stop being "soft targets", then that's exactly what they're going to declare everything else whenever there's a shooting in a public place. What's the end game? When does the idea of adding more guns to something stop? Is anyone without a gun a soft target? Does everybody need to carry a gun on them at all times?

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Re: Trump

Postby Wrathbone » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:19 pm

The end game is a 300m person Mexican stand-off (particularly ironic if Trump ever builds his wall).
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Re: Trump

Postby Asherons » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:41 pm

Yeah it is surprising how short the 2nd amendment is. But I believe schools are considered soft targets because they are gun free zones, so they are hit by people knowing they have little opposition.

A mall I don't think is considered a soft target since people can legally carry their firearms around with them.

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Re: Trump

Postby Rusty » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:01 pm

I thought schools were targets because it was students that attacked? It's not terrorism is it? Genuine question.
So the 'target' is who has pissed you off not what's easiest.

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Re: Trump

Postby Solitaire » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:36 pm

Rusty, we have mass shootings at places other than schools. And the Sandy Hook massacre was at an elementary school . . .

Anyway, specific to the idea of handing out weapons to civilian teachers, here's an article about combat veterans such as myself who think it's a really terrible idea, and their many reasons why (sorry it's on BF :():
https://www.buzzfeed.com/verabergengrue ... cjqLGVNRBa
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Re: Trump

Postby Asherons » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:08 pm

Yeah arming teachers could be a disaster but every day in America people use their personal firearms to defend themselves and they only have shooting target practice. I don't think it's ideal to expect teachers to be the ones that have to step up and shoot down a deranged gunmen but I also think when the situation comes people will do their best to defend and protect themselves and their students.

And personally I don't even own a pistol, I have shot my friends but have yet to buy one for myself. My family we own 3 shotguns and one rifle, and bows and arrows. also don't hunt, we shoot for fun and not even all that often. I do plan on getting a pistol for myself and my wife to train with this summer though.

I wouldn't want to be in a situation that ever invovles having to use lethel force against another human, and I think most people agree, but I would if i felt me or my family are in danger of their lives.

Back in 2013 my old next door neighbor killed someone with his pistol because he was being charged at with a knife, his life was hell after that because a court case that followed. He was found not guilty but all in all I think using a gun should always be a last resort.

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Re: Trump

Postby eVoL » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:09 pm

Asherons wrote: I have shot my friends .

FFS Americans!!!
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