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Mantis
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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:53 am

The answer is never more guns. One only needs to look at the number of mass shootouts and sprees in the US compared with other modern countries. The US population is only six times the size of the UK, yet they have 160 times as many fire arms related homicides every year.

Their culture is unlikely to ever change, but far tighter controls are what they really need.

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Re: Trump

Postby Wrathbone » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:59 am

The amount problems with arming teachers is sky high, but for me one of the biggest is that every school has short-tempered dickhead students who do stupid things in a fit of rage. The potential for one of those students to grab the teacher's gun when the teacher does something to piss them off is WAY higher than the likelihood of current school shootings. There is no way I would have gone to a school where the teachers were armed, and there is no way most of my teachers would have agreed to be armed (assuming guns were prevalent in the UK). I come from a family of teachers, and the idea of any of them packing heat is ridiculous. I suppose the nearest equivalent we have here is knives in schools, but arming teachers with knives is equally daft.
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Re: Trump

Postby Raid » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:22 am

The culture of gun ownership and use has to change before this situation gets any better. The September 11th attacks, the era-defining terrorist act that has shaped world and domestic politics, killed around 2900 people. Every two and a half years, guns kill as many children in the US.

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Re: Trump

Postby Wrathbone » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm

His latest string of inane tweets suggest that armed teachers are a deterrent for school shootings. Does he not understand that many (most?) of these attackers go in there with intention or expectation that they will die?
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Re: Trump

Postby Jez » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:59 pm

Idiocy. Like you say WB this just ups the ante for the these lunatics that do this stuff. It certainly won't be a deterrent for the committed head cases.

Not sure what it will really take to regulate properly gun sale. Maybe an attack on one of these private schools that the politicians send their sprogs to. Stuff closer to home hits harder I guess.

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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:12 pm

Gun culture and big businesses are far too heavily entrenched in American culture for it to ever change I'm afraid. The NRA basically owns the Republican party. It would take nothing short of a miracle to change that. Their society is slowly moving more and more towards this dystopian image of the big business classes ruling from their ivory towers whilst the rest of the disenfranchised population murders each other over the scraps. Their middle class and median income shrinks year on year. How long until everybody in America is armed and dangerous?

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Re: Trump

Postby Solitaire » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:08 pm

Agree with you Mantis, et al, re: American gun culture and the NRA being in the back pockets of our politicians. It won't ever change. I've come to think back wistfully on the George W. Bush days - wow, I thought we had it bad then, having an average frat-boy clown as a president. Trump has made us realize that there are many millions of mouth-breathing Americans that have his same poor character traits and dimwitted thinking. I fear that everything - every sector of my society - is going to suffer and become much worse, before anything gets even a little bit better. I see no light at the end of this tunnel.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jez » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:30 pm

I just cannot understand his thoughts on arming teachers whatsoever. Doesn't this guy get advice???

I am trained with various weapons but there's no way I'd be confident enough to think I'd be able to react to a once in a lifetime experience such as a teenager pulling a weapon and expect to be effective. Shooting a pistol isn't easy. Not easy at all certainly in a "surprise" setting like that.

Armed police et al practice constantly in high stress simulations so what is trump expecting them to do? Spend 6 hours a day training in weapons or teaching.

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Re: Trump

Postby Animalmother » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:56 pm

There was an armed cop standing outside the school during the shooting, he couldn't bring himself to go in. How they expect a teacher to react is ridiculous.

Was listening to a piece yesterday saying how there's this hero fantasy that many gun owners have, "If I'd been there I could have saved the day". It's complete bullshit, most people freeze or panic, which is perfectly normal.

Unfortunately these killing sprees are a goldmine for the gun industry, everytime it happens there's panic buying of guns in the off chance that logical gun laws might be passed.

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Re: Trump

Postby Wrathbone » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:59 pm

How about giving certain teachers projectile tasers on the provision that they're only used in life-and-death situations (with appropriately severe repercussions for using them for any other purpose)? I still don't think it's a real solution to the problem and has a bunch of its own associated problems, but I can't see why any sane person would suggest guns before even considering tasers.
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Re: Trump

Postby katarn » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:03 pm

Feel a bit sorry for that cop. In any other situation where there's a guy with an assault rifle, most cops wouldn't be expected to individually go into a do-or-die battle with their side-arm. They'd back off & get SWAT to deal with it.

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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:11 pm

The reasons for not arming teachers with guns are extensive and I really don't think need to be explained. It's just utterly asinine to think it would work.

But then, what would you expect his response to be? Trump literally needed a prompt card to remind him to show empathy to the victims and their families. He is so detached from the real world I think he barely qualifies as human.

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Re: Trump

Postby Sly Boots » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:14 pm

Arming teachers is ludicrous and a clear no-go, however I pretty much expect that what will happen is that armed personnel are placed in US schools, just as flights have armed sky marshals as a terrorism deterrent.

If that does happen, surely I can't be the only person thinking that having firearms inside a school campus is a terrible idea?
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Re: Trump

Postby Raid » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:16 pm

The head of the NRA spoke recently at a conservative conference, repeating that line "to stop a bad guy with a gun it takes a good guy with a gun". I have to wonder how much of American gun culture is focussed on dreams of being that "good guy with a gun". It's ludicrous - knowing how to fire a gun doesn't make you a sodding soldier.

He also said "Every day young children are being dropped off at schools that are virtually wide-open soft targets for anyone bent on mass murder." It sounds like he wants the average school to look like a military base. Perhaps it's my inexperience with gun culture, but the very notion of turning places of learning into fortified encampments makes me feel ill. Is it some sort of normalisation thing? He wants kids to live surrounded by firearms so they'll think they're a necessity when they grow up?

How about giving certain teachers projectile tasers on the provision that they're only used in life-and-death situations (with appropriately severe repercussions for using them for any other purpose)? I still don't think it's a real solution to the problem and has a bunch of its own associated problems, but I can't see why any sane person would suggest guns before even considering tasers.


Would you really feel ok with sending someone with a taser up against someone with an assault rifle? I sure as hell wouldn't. Besides, schools are filled with long hallways, those tasers don't have much range on them I don't think.

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Re: Trump

Postby Wrathbone » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:20 pm

Raid wrote:
How about giving certain teachers projectile tasers on the provision that they're only used in life-and-death situations (with appropriately severe repercussions for using them for any other purpose)? I still don't think it's a real solution to the problem and has a bunch of its own associated problems, but I can't see why any sane person would suggest guns before even considering tasers.


Would you really feel ok with sending someone with a taser up against someone with an assault rifle? I sure as hell wouldn't. Besides, schools are filled with long hallways, those tasers don't have much range on them I don't think.


Yeah, not saying it's a great idea. What I'm saying is that Trump has leaped straight to guns without so much as considering tasers. They may provide a non-lethal, far less intimidating method of preventing an attack in some (not all) cases, and if a student steals one from a teacher then it's unlikely to kill anyone. Like I said, there are other problems it introduces but this has to be a logical stepping stone somewhere between full gun control (never going to happen) and arming teachers with guns (idiotic beyond belief).
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