Trump

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Sly Boots
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Re: Trump

Postby Sly Boots » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:59 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:politics for many is so tribal that even if a law was proposed by your party to bend you over and fuck you up the arse with a pineapple people would still vote for it because "it's my party"


I've read that is particularly true in America. Apparently in the last election it was estimated that as many as 80% of voters would simply vote for 'their' party regardless of the candidate (was said to be an even split between Rep and Dem), and only 20% of voters being either undecided or willing to evaluate candidates on their actual merits... that 20% effectively deciding the result of the election.
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Re: Trump

Postby Achtung Englander » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:06 pm

dear god
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Re: Trump

Postby Raid » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:07 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:politics for many is so tribal that even if a law was proposed by your party to bend you over and fuck you up the arse with a pineapple people would still vote for it because "it's my party"



True. I've never understood that mindset, and it's why I typically use one of those "vote for policies not parties" sites before an ordinary election (this year I was always going to vote for the Tories' biggest threat, because I think our current government is closer to being truly evil and corrupt than any British government in my lifetime). Personalities and ideologies vary so much between politicians that voting along party lines can simply be dangerous.

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Re: Trump

Postby Jez » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:26 pm

Achtung Englander wrote:dear god


thats not purely an american problem of course, this goes on all the time here in the UK. I work in the west midlands and a common saying here is "Blue in Football...Blue in Politics" <insert gormless brummy accent>.

fucking brainless really considering its a working class city generally.

Ive always voted taciturn - if i like the policy and the person they'll get my vote over party politics every time.

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Re: Trump

Postby Achtung Englander » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:38 pm

me too - I vote for what I feel is best at the time - so I have voted Conservative, Labour and Green depending upon my conviction

to vote for one party irrespective of policy because you have done so in the past regardless of the health of the party is just plain idiotic. Given how intractable people have become this is not surprising.

I genuinely thought that in the age of the internet and instant access to information "people" would be become more enlightened, but the opposite is happening. Selective searching on the internet is reinforcing your belief and mindset. I believe there is a theory that Google has infact people dumber.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jez » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:50 pm

i have no doubt at all about the final sentence.

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Re: Trump

Postby Wrathbone » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:53 pm

Selective ads on social media also have a big impact on reinforcing what you already believe. I for instance get tonnes of stuff showing me how Corbyn has been unfairly maligned by the press - something I expect I'd believe regardless, but the constant exposure to that side of things makes it hard to entertain any other notion. I imagine if I was bombarded by propaganda about immigrants being the cause of all our problems then I'd probably start to believe some of it. The question for me is how much of it is the natural result of tailored ads/posts/whatever based on your activities, and how much of it is intentional targeting of demographics by agencies with agendas?
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Re: Trump

Postby Sly Boots » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:00 pm

I think the internet has made it even easier for people to find conclaves of people with similar views and eschew (and/or ban) anyone who holds dissenting views. I think people generally can tend to enjoy living in echo chambers - after all, who doesn't enjoy being agreed with - at the cost of losing any exposure to different perspective or having their opinions challenged. As a result I think in the age of simply being able to block people on social media you don't agree with, people generally are losing the ability to debate their views, back them up with facts and considered arguments, and consequently have no reason to ever change them.
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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:44 pm

There are many reasons the internet is contributing to the 'dumbing' down of people in general. Not many people will take the stance that I would where I consider it to be an excellent research tool and will use it to find out all manner of things I'd never otherwise be able to. The general attitude around it is actually making people lazier. Why bother going to any effort to do much or become informed on a subject when there are so many other things to deal with and it's so easy to be fed information by organisations whose agenda you do not know.

Combine that with the huge overload of things available online, it's incredibly easy, I imagine, for people to be totally overwhelmed and overstimulated when trying to learn about a subject that it's easier to just roll with whatever you're being shown.

Really, it's a form of cyber warfare in many ways, because the possibility for foreign agents or other nefarious people to use internet ads, as you guys have said, in ways which could be considered indoctrination or for propaganda purposes is more or less limitless. And your every day Joe is far more vulnerable to that kind of thing than the minority of people who are actually willing to stop for a moment and ask the question of where all this information is coming from. Russia in particular is excellent at controlling the media and what it publicises online, even down to targetting Facebook ads to influence the US election it seems.

The idea of just voting for the same party regardless of the circumstances is just asinine and completely defeats the purpose of democracy. People's stupidity makes me sick.

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Re: Trump

Postby Achtung Englander » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:11 pm

Right now the US Congress is debating rescinding Obama's Net Neutrality law. Luckily we will not be affected (provided the UK Parliament does not fuck it up - https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... be-worried)

The scale of Trump's adversarial policies against whatever Obama signed to is just breathtaking. Trump sole goal is to reverse everything Obama stood for regardless of whether it was good or bad. I feel sorry for the Americans who did not vote for this idiot but given that almost half of the US voters did I now am in the frame of mind that you / we deserve what we vote for. They wanted Trump, they got Trump and they were warned. Similarly we voted for Brexit, be prepared to pay whatever the consequences that entails.

Hopefully the one silver lining to come from all this is that the next generation will learn from this one. You want shit. You will get shit, no use crying about it after the fact.
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Re: Trump

Postby Mantis » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:25 pm

Though they are similar in many ways, I think the Brexit/Trump votes are significantly different in the sense that one was a routine part of the US political process; a very unique set of circumstances surrounding it for sure, but still the result should always have been anticipated given the history of Democratics and Republicans bouncing between the White House.

Whereas with Brexit, that vote actually outlines a fundamental split in the population of our country over a single issue where each sides views are almost completely incompatible with one another. It draws a dividing line directly through us and won't just be fixed by an election in four years like with the US elections. I really don't see a decent answer to this in the short term; long term obviously will be easier to deal with as the age demographics show that within the next 10-15 years a large portion of the Brexit vote will be dead. But it's just astonishing how things got to this in the first place, and by and large a lot of it can be laid at the doorstep of our incredibly nationalistic and self-interested media.

Whilst it's nice to take the view of "you voted for it, deal with it", it's hard to shake the fact that nearly 50% of the people who voted absolutely did not want this. I would actually rather we split the UK and England up into EU/non-EU states than went through with this. I do not want to be associated with the hatred pouring out of our nationalistic Brexit ideology, period; let alone considering the economic implications of which are very well documented (though not by the government apparently).

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Re: Trump

Postby Raid » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:29 pm

It's also worth noting that while the Trump election was an essential part of American politics, Brexit was an issue that should never have been voted on in the first place, and the referendum only happened to further the ambitions of a man who immediately upped and left when he didn't get the result he expected. Leaving the EU is such a phenomenally complicated issue that no member of the public could really hope to understand the consequences except perhaps in their own little niches.

But yes, I've been a victim of the echo chamber to some extent. I always tried to use less biased news sources (although that's something of a guessing game), but after the shock of the Brexit result I started more actively listening to opinions very much in contradiction of my own just to try and get a fuller picture. There's no point defending your own viewpoint if you can't understand the viewpoint of others, because all it does is cause arguments where neither side will back down.

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Re: Trump

Postby Achtung Englander » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:13 pm

the vote was cast - Net Neutrality has been revoked. This will now lead to a multi -tier internet for the US. The poor in America have just got lot more poorer.

This Trump govt agenda now is to make the rich as rich as possible at the sacrifice of the poor. What must be going through the mind of the average US citizen now ?
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Re: Trump

Postby Raid » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:15 pm

Probably very little; from what I understand the majority of Americans are barely even aware of the issue.

I just hope for the love of god that the idiots in charge of our own country don't see this as a good idea.

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Re: Trump

Postby eVoL » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:18 pm

I thought May already hinted at it before this....
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