Politics 101

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Mantis
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Re: Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:43 pm

Oh he absolutely doesn't give a toss what the public think of him. But even his own parliamentary party have lost confidence in him given his performances over the last couple of years, I think flying 8 hours for a 10 minute photo op in Afghanistan in protest of another runway at Heathrow was a bridge too far for some. And if he's not seen as credible within his own party then he will never be able to succeed her as PM.

The problem if it does go to a new leadership contest is that the Tory party simply doesn't have any credible candidates who aren't mired in scandal or have shown themselves to be utterly incompetent; at least not from their front benches. Add to that the fact that it is basically impossible to reconcile the views of the Brexit half versus the Remain half. It's an impossible task and nobody probably even wants it, they were no doubt hoping for May to cling on just long enough to secure their desired Brexit outcome and then they'd sweep in to save the day afterwards. Hence why that insidious little wretch, Mogg, presides over the ERG and spends all his time bleating to the media about what he wants from Brexit whilst shying away from the prospect of ever taking any actual responsibility for it in a cabinet position.

May might have enough to hold her ground for now, but this Chequers deal is not going to work.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Raid » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:11 pm

The BBC's Laura Kuenssberg is saying that there are rumours that Tory rebels have gotten those 48 signatures required to force a no confidence vote.

I guess I was wrong.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm

The slow trickle of resignations continue just as was warned.

Many people will not have heard of Maria Caulfield or Ben Bradley, or the roles they filled. Both were made (unpaid) party vice chairs only in January, and both immediately saw some controversy.

Caulfield, the MP for Lewes since 2017, saw criticism over her role as s vice chair for women because of her views on abortion.

Bradley, elected in Mansfield last year – and is a remainer –faced criticism after comments emerged showing he had once suggested that unemployed people should opt for free vasectomies rather than continuing to have children they could not afford to support.

In a blogpost, Bradley claimed that the country would be soon “drowning in a vast sea of unemployed wasters” if workless families had four or five children while others limited themselves to one or two.


Wonderful people.

I don't know whether May is going to make it to the end of these negotiations, but I get the feeling that nobody is going to give a toss about these two going.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby gpa-gone-west » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:52 pm

As far as I can see there are two possible outcomes to the current shenanigans. 1) May negotiates a deal that most Brexit voters are never going to be happy with. 2) May goes, Boris gets in, and we get a hard-Brexit. Either way, there will be a significant percentage of voters who are not going to be happy.
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Re: Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:15 pm

For her to negotiate a deal she's going to have to come up with something that won't be immediately rejected by the EU, which she has failed to do so far.

She's just given a speech alongside Merkel and this is what she said:

"On the issue of where we are in terms of the Chequers agreement and the proposal that will be coming out in more detail later this week with the white paper, that absolutely keeps faith with the vote of the British people.

We will bring an end to free movement, and end to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the United Kingdom, and end to sending vast sums of money every year to the European Union. We’ll come out of the common fisheries policy, we’ll come out of the common agricultural policy.

But we will do this in a way which is a smooth and orderly Brexit, a Brexit that protects jobs, protects livelihoods and also meets our commitment for no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland."


Two of those paragraphs within her own damn speech are completely irreconcilable. Either she really is just praying for the best or she knows she's supremely blagging it. Either way it's a pretty horrific prospect.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Raid » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:22 pm

Mantis wrote:
and the proposal that will be coming out in more detail later this week with the white paper, that absolutely keeps faith with the vote of the British people.

And there's the fucking problem. She could be planning on reducing all of Europe to an atomic slurry, and it would still technically be in keeping with the "vote of the British people" because we'll leave the European Union if said Union no longer exists. Remain had one end goal; stay in the European Union. Leave had so many goals for so many people with so many different agendas that the vote was not any sort of indication of what the people actually want. That we're still proceeding to drive off this cliff while still attempting to justify it with that line is nothing short of lunacy.

Brexit will not please Remainers nor Brexiteers. Everybody loses.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Jez » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:03 am

Peripheral to all of this really but all our politicians are monkeys. They get paid peanuts so the job attracts monkeys.

Country needs a complete review of what we pay the people that run and manage our country.

Pay less of them much much more and you'll attract "private industry" standard people that will want a career in politics rather than industry etc.. HOWEVER make them damned accountable. If they fuck up then by god you better be prepared to pay for it.

I'd do the same for Government procurement and contract negotiators and writers for Government projects. Pay them the industry standard wage so the job attracts quality people that can properly represent the tax payers money.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:57 am

I think accountability is the main issue rather than wage. In fact I'd say that some of them are paid too much given how little work they get away with doing. I don't think we should have career politicians, because that's when they feel safe in their seats and start coasting by without properly representing their constituents. Career politicians also lack an understanding of the real world after a while, hence why you end up with failed ministers with no idea about business telling multinational manufacturing company CEOs what's best for them.

Hold them all to account and force them to take their jobs more seriously and I think you'd set things on the right path to how they should be. So many Tory MPs should have been out on their arses after the last few years of little scandals, half of them didn't even lose their ministerial positions.

It's woeful how few statesmen we actually have now, all sides of the political spectrum are lacking in characters who manage to have both gravitas and strong principles.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Jez » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:40 am

So...less pay but even more accountability? Nah.

Think of the country as a huge multinational company. You need quality people running it not monkeys paid peanuts who are going to get their balls crushed every time they fuck up when they are out of their unqualified depth.

I see the effects of shit people in key roles all the time with working in both the NHS and Military. Our people are completely out of their depth against the far better paid industry counterparts.

An example. Here's Peter. He's been in university for 7 years and has 2 choices....He can work as an intern in a industry job for twice the wage as government with prospects for the future being very bright for him. Or he can choose less wages in government with lots of extra accountability and no respect.

Choice. Obvious.

And you still have principles and statesman qualities but why not be paid for it at a level matching industry. Give the job the respect it deserves.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Wrathbone » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:10 am

A country should not be treated as a business, nor should a government operate as one. The first priority of business (in many cases, the only priority) is profit. A country's first priority should be the welfare of its people. Absolutely we should attract those of the highest competence into government, but it's equally important that we attract those who have a shred of fucking humanity about them. Raising MP salaries does not achieve that.

Mantis is right - we have no political powerhouses at the moment. I can't think of a single UK politician with the combination of gravitas, uncommon intelligence and human decency required to lead a country.


EDIT - Thinking of ways to promote politicians with strong principles alongside those with high competence, the problem is that the only way we really address or publicise that at all in an election is through debates, and sadly the only sort of debates we see are those where the loudest win. Soundbytes win (strong and stable strong and stable strong and stable). We need a better way of exploring ethical problems in elections that makes voters aware of where politicians stand, that doesn't promote volume over nuance and that holds politicians properly accountable if all their election promises were pants-on-fire lies.

Also, and I think this is crucial, we need to do far more to promote voting based on policy rather than party.
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Re: Politics 101

Postby Raid » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:36 am

I don't think there's an easy solution to this. There does have to be an incentive to attract the best people away from the private sector. Politics should be a uniquely public job, and when your career can be ended by one public fuckup, there needs to be something else to make it a more attractive proposition.

I still think the media is the biggest problem; our government is practically run by Rupert Murdoch and his contemporaries, simply because their publications control the public perception of politicians. When the Daily Mail can get away with headlines like "Enemies of the People" (referring to the judges that merely ensured our democracy was working as it should), and painting the leader of the opposition as a terrorist sympathiser while ignoring the fact that our current government practically funds terrorists anyway, that is a massive problem. The laws of course won't change to prevent this because the people it benefits are in power.

There is *so* much wrong with our political system that fixing it seems like an insurmountable task.

And we should just fucking bomb Eton.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Wrathbone » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:54 am

It does seem insurmountable, but I think the first step is educating people to not trust headlines, to look for news from multiple and varied sources rather than just the Daily Hate... basically to think for themselves rather than simply accepting everything at face value. Not an easy or fast solution, but I'd argue it's a good place to start.
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Re: Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pm

I think we're moving in the opposite direction at the moment I'm afraid. And after a hard Brexit things are only going to get worse.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Jez » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:13 pm

Wrathbone wrote:A country should not be treated as a business, nor should a government operate as one. The first priority of business (in many cases, the only priority) is profit. A country's first priority should be the welfare of its people. Absolutely we should attract those of the highest competence into government, but it's equally important that we attract those who have a shred of fucking humanity about them. Raising MP salaries does not achieve that.

Mantis is right - we have no political powerhouses at the moment. I can't think of a single UK politician with the combination of gravitas, uncommon intelligence and human decency required to lead a country.


EDIT - Thinking of ways to promote politicians with strong principles alongside those with high competence, the problem is that the only way we really address or publicise that at all in an election is through debates, and sadly the only sort of debates we see are those where the loudest win. Soundbytes win (strong and stable strong and stable strong and stable). We need a better way of exploring ethical problems in elections that makes voters aware of where politicians stand, that doesn't promote volume over nuance and that holds politicians properly accountable if all their election promises were pants-on-fire lies.

Also, and I think this is crucial, we need to do far more to promote voting based on policy rather than party.


Lovely principles that got left behind when the civilised world let big business do the shot calling for them. Of course the country needs to be looked at as a business! This whole thread is an echo chamber about how shit the economy is getting etc etc etc. All sorts of things that would massively benefit from being treated as a business. The first step is government employing people that understand this and have the intelligence to pull on many different areas of advice to come to sensible decisions on how tax payers money is spent.

Employ them and pay them well for it.

Pay peanuts...get monkeys.

Or

Buy cheap...buy twice. If you want another saying that I've found true over the years

And for clarity:

I don't think having "a shred of fuckin humanity" and being a good business person are mutually exclusive.

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Re: Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:28 pm

I don't think you'll ever find anyone who will disagree with you that we need people with the capabilities to be in the right positions, and I agree that we need to be a whole lot more ruthless with who gets government contracts and how they perform with them. But letting big businesses do all the shot calling is predominantly what has been slowly grinding this country into the ground for the last fifty years. The economy isn't stagnant because we don't pay our politicians enough; it's decades of poor investment, asset sell-offs and stupid policies like Brexit which will tank most of our major industries causing all that.

What would you suggest is an appropriate number of MPs to cut down to and how much should we be paying them? Because cut the numbers too drastically and you face issues with them being able to properly represent their voters. And pay them too much and you run the risk of people doing the job simply because they care about the money. Being paid more is absolutely no guarantee that you will get the appropriate talent either, plenty of very well paid business executives wind up being terrible and yet still leave with golden payoffs.

The simple fact is that we will never have the proper calibre of MP until the population sorts itself out and expects more of them rather than being led by the nose by the crop of charlatans and liars we currently have. You get the leaders you deserve really.

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