Politics 101

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Mantis
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Politics 101

Postby Mantis » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:32 pm

It's deadline day for registration. Let's court a little controversy and have a little vote of our own. All votes are totally anonymous.

I just can't wait until the whole thing is over. If it's achieved anything at all, this campaign has definitely shown just how bad the gutter politics of our country really is. Leaders on both sides of the argument have been as bad as each other with their outright lies, misrepresentation and scaremongering.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Sly Boots » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:35 pm

Christ, I still don't really know what I'll do but intend to vote as you can't not, really.

I'm leaning towards in, but that's mostly paranoid fear of the unknown.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:45 pm

Doesn't that show just how bad of a job these campaigns have done at actually informing us of the facts though.

I've been on the fence leaning both ways a few times now, but I've finally sent my postal vote off.

There's a lot of analysis out there that you can read up on, but ultimately the effects of an OUT aren't going to be entirely predictable. I read this one last night, and then there's the review commissioned by the government years ago which they totally buried when the results showed that the EU doesn't really impede on British life all that much. Couldn't find much in the way of pro-Brexit analysis though.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby gpa-gone-west » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:37 pm

The EU is a dictatorship, laws are decided on in secret by unelected individuals. MEP’s can’t even change/suggest the laws. But I knew 5 years ago how I would vote, were I given a chance (and it’s not just about immigration). Look at Switzerland, one of the richest countries in the world (GDP per Person). They have never been in the EU.

At the end of the day, it’s a referendum where people have to vote as their heart tells them. I fully respect people who vote to stay in, it’s their right in a free democracy. Whatever the vote, we will all have to live with the result afterwards. I will be glad when it’s over, whatever the result.

The only thing that is set in stone, is nobody knows what is going to happen whatever the result.

I was reluctant to put this link in, because I didn’t want you guys thinking I was trying to overly influence you.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:51 pm

Out.

I'm actually a fan of a proper federal elected Europe but it'll never happen unless we shrink it to the power house northern Europe states. Which won't happen now. The way I feel Britain is neither in nor out at the moment we try hard to play by the Europe rulebook and cherry pick the things we want to be part of. The rest of Europe hates us for it. I watched the Farage Cameron debate last night and the disgusting attitude towards Farage made my mind up. Filled in the postal vote and ticked out.

Apparently we are all going to get roundly punished for having the temerity to even hold this referendum by our unelected European overlords. So IN or OUT we will feel the slap so that Europe can send a message to other states. Cameron got nothing in his reforms worth a damn in February he got basically told to get back in box with a smack on bum and a warning about leaving.

Kthxbye

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Quietman » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:31 pm

As far as I know the EU can't impose a law by itself, it just suggests them. Each country's government then has to enact those.

I'm most likely going to vote in barring any sudden revelations. A lot of the Leave campaigns arguments are either a) untrue or b) based on the rest of Europe deciding to be nice to us after we leave which, given the clusterfuck we'll create, is probably pretty unlikely.

As Mantis said though, it's been pretty good at highlighting how most politicians on both sides are massive Edwins.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:57 pm

Isn't is funny how perceptions differ. As much as I think the leave campaign have cooked the books to sex up the debate. The remain campaign to my mind have been utterly pornogrpahic in their sexing up of the consequences if we dare leave. Austerity for another 2 years (as if it was stopping 2 years earlier by anyone's measure lol) 4300 pounds less better off each household...really? And all the rest.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Quietman » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:04 pm

Thing is, the brexit side hasn't convinced me that we'd be better off, just that they'd maybe get us to the same point as we are now.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:08 pm

If we leave I'm not sure exactly how the EU is going to continue to function. Any huge economic catastrophes in the EU are going to be felt here whether we're in or not. It's not unrealistic to expect that we're all going to be a worse off in some way. Every model drawn up is pure speculation though.

I watched most of the video GPA posted, and whilst I've felt convinced by certain arguments for the leave campaign at times by other sources, that video is pure propaganda. There's a lot of misrepresentation of facts there, particularly concerning the UKs trade with the rest of the world from within the EU and when comparing us to Switzerland. It's always best to have caution when believing a show that only ever considers one side of the argument.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:24 pm

Quietman wrote:Thing is, the brexit side hasn't convinced me that we'd be better off, just that they'd maybe get us to the same point as we are now.


This is the bit that worries me also about voting out but I'm willing to take the chance. The remain lot haven't convinced me that things will be any better staying in either for that matter. Just a lot of spin about how awful it will be when we leave with gangs of establishment figures agreeing. Reform after this will be impossible in the EU we'll be properly put back in our box and told to toe the line as we had our chance at change.

We are stronger than that bunch across the channel.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Quietman » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:52 pm

Are we?
IMO :P :wink: :P :wink: :P :wink:
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Lee » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:36 pm

Voted for Out by postal vote as well for the various same reasoning mentioned already.

Rest of my family are doing like wise.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Edwin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:01 pm

Out. The Remainians promised house prices will collapse if we leave and I want to buy one.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby DjchunKfunK » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:03 pm

Comparing us to places like Switzerland is fanciful at best. They are a tiny country compared to us, with a population only slightly bigger than London, with a much smaller economy. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that somehow Europe is holding us back economically. We are in the state we are because the banks ran amok and then the Tories spent the next 5-6 years cutting the economy to the bone. Whether we had been in or out of Europe would have made no difference.

As it stands, for me the EU is the only body that stands between the Tories and a decimation of our working rights. Many times those who are anti-EU in the Tory party have said they want to do away with things like the Working Time Directive, paid paternity leave and the guaranteed holidays. If we vote Leave we could end up with Boris as our next PM and 9 years of unrestricted Tory right-wing government.

It's not a perfect system, TTIP is an example of that, but it's better than being left alone with a Tory government.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:07 pm

Agree with all of that, DJ.

TTIP is currently in the long grass too because many EU nations are rejecting it in its current form. Boris Johnson and co have all said that they are pro-TTIP. If we Brexit we're more likely to end up with shady trade deals with the USA that seek to privatise every aspect of public life thanks to the Tories than if we stayed in the EU and fought against TTIP.

Also, interesting that the poll so far is 50:50 between those who are actually voting.

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