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Jez
 
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:53 pm

We didn't all vote to leave because of Johnny foreigner or because we might read red label tabloids, I'd even suggest that it's only a minority that voted out because of those reasons.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:04 pm

I know many people didn't vote out for that reason, but I refuse to accept that the people I just described only represent a 'minority'. Just look at the tone of how this Brexit has been set; right from the start with Farage parading around lies about immigrants, the papers, the Tory's capitulating to the far right because they're terrified of UKIP. If you can't see that this entire thing was hijacked by a very nasty foreigner hating far right populist movement then you are either blind or you're willfully ignoring it because your side won so you don't really care.

I accepted that the EUs flaws may ultimately outweight it's benefits and that if we couldn't play a more direct role in things then maybe we should consider breaking away. But I voted Remain because that is not how this campaign was framed at all and so the real issues have taken a complete backseat to xenophobia and an obsession with repatriating some illusion of sovereignty. Everything about the way the referendum was run was wrong and continues to be so in the aftermath.

Ultimately the ones who voted for Brexit in the first place are the ones likely to suffer the most from its outcome. That's what riles me up more than anything, it's a mixture of heartbreaking and angering.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Lee » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:11 pm

I don't even think tabloids have that much clout nowadays compared to TV/internet news or shows which were all mostly about telling people to vote, to stay in the EU.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:44 pm

Lee wrote:I don't even think tabloids have that much clout nowadays compared to TV/internet news or shows which were all mostly about telling people to vote, to stay in the EU.


I'd generally agree with this. Printed news just doesn't have the same effect anymore. I felt the national TV coverage was as balanced as it could be considering they were reporting both sides Gobshite arguments.

Mantis just calm down a little with the argumentative retorts. We all friends here eh. =D>

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Subway Diet » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:40 am

Well, I'll just say this much: I'm glad someone is optimistic about the prospects of leaving the EU.

As someone who has already been royally bent over a barrel by the Tories in the past, the thought of them taking full control of the country, without the EU keeping them somewhat in check doesn't fill me with much hope. Looking forward to more surveillance and invasion of privacy. More cruel and unusual targeting of the poor and disabled.

Even setting aside my lefty social justice, on the economic side, all evidence I've seen points to this being something that'll most likely cause massive hardship in the lives of myself and many, many others.

I can't see what you see, but I really do hope it works out for all our sakes.

(And all this "Remoaners should like it and make up with the leaving crowd" talk. Or as it was put here: "I've only seen bad attitudes from the remain camp."
It's not on us to make nice. We feel like we've just been screwed over so of course we're not going to take it laying down. If the bridges are going to be mended, it's on the majority side to reach out. Show us that it wasn't a terrible decision and that you actually care about our concerns. I'd certainly like to find the positive side of all this.)
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby DjchunKfunK » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:50 am

Lee wrote:I don't even think tabloids have that much clout nowadays compared to TV/internet news or shows which were all mostly about telling people to vote, to stay in the EU.


It's not just about clout with the populace, it's about setting the agenda and in that regard the right wing press played a huge part in that. Even with a diminished readership if you have the majority of the newsprint constantly saying we should leave the EU because immigration is out of control you will eventually have that bleed through to the general populace, especially when the other side was less forceful and even less widely read.

(And all this "Remoaners should like it and make up with the leaving crowd" talk. Or as it was put here: "I've only seen bad attitudes from the remain camp."
It's not on us to make nice. We feel like we've just been screwed over so of course we're not going to take it laying down. If the bridges are going to be mended, it's on the majority side to reach out. Show us that it wasn't a terrible decision and that you actually care about our concerns. I'd certainly like to find the positive side of all this.)


Yeah the lack of grace shown by leaders on the Leave side has been shocking. People often talk about bad losers, but in this case they have been very bad winners.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Wrathbone » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:54 am

I'm concerned by the increasing attitude (from both sides) that because the leave vote won, the remain side should stop complaining and get 'on team' with Brexit. That is not how democracy works, and there is a huge difference between accepting the result of a democratic vote and deciding to stop fighting your corner altogether. Do opposition parties stop campaigning against elected governments because the governments won fair and square? No, they keep plugging away for what they want to happen.

I recognise Brexit is happening and I accept that it was a fair and democratic vote. That does not mean I have to like it, or be optimistic about it, or agree with the way it's being handled, or stop supporting ways for us to remain relevant in the EU. To dismiss that way of thinking as stubbornness or being a 'bad loser' is to fundamentally misunderstand what democracy is.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Subway Diet » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:17 am

Wrathbone wrote:I accept that it was a fair and democratic vote.
I don't. I mean, I do, but it was a terrible question put to the uninformed public. An advisory referendum, for crying out loud, not a mandate to burn it all down. It got nasty and became a matter of pride for some, with much of the tone setting gutter press portraying anyone opposed as traitors.

Funny how there was all these caveats with IndiRef, like there needing to be a 10% lead for the winning side and such. From the complacent remain campaign to the leave being largely taken over by the worst kind of people, this was a cock-up from start to finish. I'm convinced this'll be a black eye for the UK for many decades to come.

But I imagine the Tories are running with it for their own personal reason. Just you wait until they're running the next election on how great it'll be to get rid of the EU bill of human rights. I've seen how they treat people. Who do you think a Tory penned human rights bill is going to benefit?

Haha. Stop me if I'm getting to dystopian conspiracy theorist.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Wrathbone » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:27 am

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think the circumstances surrounding the vote were abhorrent and information was presented terribly to the public so that it was near impossible for anybody to make a properly informed decision. I don't believe the premise for the referendum was valid in the first place. But the actual vote itself was - mostly - done in a fair and democratic manner (i.e. it wasn't rigged). Voter intimidation did take place in some places, though, but I don't know if it was high enough to say it impacted the result.
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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:07 pm

Well, it's done. After 9 months of dithering about doing absolutely nothing, Article 50 is finally invoked.

Not a day to be proud of being British.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Subway Diet » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:06 pm

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Mantis wrote:Well, it's done. After 9 months of dithering about doing absolutely nothing, Article 50 is finally invoked.

Not a day to be proud of being British.


That 9 months of dithering was euro imposed. I'm personally looking forward to not having to dither with them anymore. Now we get 2 years of more euro dithering until the final goodbye. Saw the timetable somewhere and it's laughable. Typical euro dithering.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:13 pm

How was it the EUs fault? I was under the impression that the government having to pass a bill through parliament to allow the triggering of A50 was a result of our own judiciary service ruling so. It just demonstrated how woefully unprepared the Tories were to actually deal with the entire thing.

The silver lining is seeing that the EU basically won't budge on any of its principles at all. The arrogance of Brexiters thinking that we were a significant enough of a country to dictate terms and get everything our own way against a group of 27 others has finally hit a brick wall. It's rough sailing here on out for the good ship Britannia.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Jez » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:22 pm

EU wouldn't allow any negotiations to begin from what I recall. If that's the dithering you are talking about? They (and I mean EU HQ) couldn't even sort out the preliminary garbage that is going to eat into the negotiation time of 2 years.

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Re: 23rd June EU Referendum

Postby Mantis » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:42 pm

I'm not sure what preliminary things you're referring to exactly, but the EU position has always been the same; negotiations would not formally start until Article 50 was triggered and that the UK should enact it as soon as possible to make the situation clear.


Prime Minister Cameron undertook that the decision to trigger Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union be taken by the new leadership in Britain. Our discussions were calm and measured. Leaders understand that some time is now needed to allow the dust to settle in the UK. But they also expect the intentions of the UK government to be specified as soon as possible. This was a very clear message which I believe Prime Minister Cameron will take back to London.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... fter-euco/

For this, and especially for the start of the negotiations, we need your formal notification, I mean Article 50. And this is the position shared by all 27 Member States.

To put it simply, the ball is now in your court. I am aware that it is not easy, but I still hope you will be ready to start the process as soon as possible.


http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press ... ay-london/

The ball has been in our court since June 23 last year. All we've had since then is meaningless political posturing from May to appease the right wingers in her party whilst they sorted out the parliamentary bill and court case.

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