Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Me » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:45 am

That pad as a construction interface is a pretty good idea.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Raid » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:46 pm

The Vive is getting a (third party) wireless adapter early next year.

You're not going to be walking around warehouses in VR, as it only has a range of 5m. The developer has said it wouldn't be difficult to adapt to the Rift. Of course I'd remain dubious given that the major players in VR said it wasn't possible yet.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Rusty » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:11 pm

If it has any semblance of working, I'm buying it... I'm not confident enough for a pre-order though
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Raid » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:12 pm

So I just had a virtual quickdraw contest with my new Touch controllers against a couple of other players. Initially we sorta stood there, drawing and reloading our guns, occasionally waving to each other, that sort of thing. Then I realised you could make your character duck by, well, ducking. Suddenly we're all dancing around the place trying to avoid getting hit. One player bangs his (real) hand into a table.

I notice one of the other players is adjusting his Rift between rounds, because his hands are being tracked and it looks like he's trying to pull his head off. We laugh at this.

Eventually I decide to start doing victory animations by, well, doing them with my hands. Travolta's Night Fever dance features, as does the making of finger guns (every control on the touch controller is capacitive, so it knows whether you have your fingers on a control or up in the air). I danced more than I would normally. Hand-tracked VR is fucking brilliant.

So yeah, Touch is now an actual product that you can own. They really are a wonderful design, so much so that they don't actually feel extraordinary - they're just your hands, except now they come in neon yellow. They're well balanced, lightweight, and reflect your hand movements every bit as precisely as the media made out. Half the time it felt like I wasn't even holding a controller until I picked up one of my virtual six-shooters (which you do by putting your hand to your belt and holding the grip button, which lies under your middle finger).

I did feel that the setup was a pain in the backside though, at least in the small space that I have to work with. The software kept telling me to adjust the angle that the two cameras were pointing, and although it was eventually happy, it really doesn't feel like they're in the best position. I think what I need to do is get them up above my desk pointing down at the play area, which means mounting them to a wall, or putting a shelf up.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby eVoL » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:19 pm

Try Rec Room, its so much fun!
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Rusty » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:48 am

Interacting with the VR world through hand controllers is so more intuitive than you think it'd be. Especially holding guns and/or swords.
Playing an RPG whilst holding a torch and sword is nice :)
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Raid » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:28 pm

Just had my first go with The Unspoken, the spell-flinging, shield-breaking, wizard-being game from Insomniac. It's nicely designed and themed, though I think everyone is still finding their feet with it so the level of challenge varies dramatically. It's a more complicated game than Dead and Buried, so I think it's likely to have more staying power so long as it's balanced well. I've gotten a little cocky with it, flinging my fireballs with a flick of the wrist rather than the shot-put style.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Raid » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:17 pm

Space Pirate Trainer is absolutely worth it if you want an arcade shooting and dodging gallery. Currently buying anything from the Oculus store gives you Ripcurl (haven't tried it yet, but it looks like a Tron disc game, albeit with different styling) for free.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby eVoL » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:23 pm

Ive been thinking about selling my Vive. Moving into a smaller place and I dont think I'll have any room to use it and I dont really like cockpit style games?

Would anyone be interested? I was thinking £550 posted, £500 if you can pick it up (Its at my parents right now so kind of near Hamilton, Scotland). Its in great nick except one of the lighthouses has some roughcasting scratches on the top of its case. Doesn't affect the use. Can do pics.

Going to see if I can arrange some way to fit it in but I doubt it ;_; stupid Glasgow flats!
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby DjchunKfunK » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:34 pm

Seems like VR development is rough right now.

Reading through this subreddit has, over the past six months, become difficult for me. Time and again people are ferociously attacking developers who have made strategic partnerships, and you hear phrases like "they took Oculus / facebook money", "they sold-out for a time exclusive", "anti-consumer behavior".

There are some terrible assumptions that are constantly perpetuated here, and frankly, it's made developing for virtual reality tiresome for me. I also feel weird about this because I will be defending others in this post, despite our studio not making any agreements regarding exclusivity or for the exchange of any money with either HTC, Valve, or Oculus.

(Disclosure: I'm the CEO of our studio, Rocketwerkz, and we released Out of Ammo for the HTC Vive. We're going to release our standalone expansion to that for the Vive early next year).

Consumers have transferred their expectations from PC market to VR

Specifically, they expect high quality content, lots of it, for a low price. I see constant posts, reviews, and comments like "if only they added X, they will make so much money!". The problem is that just because it is something you want, it does not mean that lots of people will want it nor that there are lots of people even available as customers.

As an example, we added cooperative multiplayer to Out of Ammo as a "drop-in" feature (meaning you can hot-drop in SP to start a MP game). While there was an appreciable bump in sales, it was very short-lived and the reality was - adding new features/content did not translate to an ongoing increase in sales. The adding of MP increased the unprofitability of Out of Ammo dramatically when we actually expected the opposite.

From our standpoint, Out of Ammo has exceeded our sales predictions and achieved our internal objectives. However, it has been very unprofitable. It is extremely unlikely that it will ever be profitable. We are comfortable with this, and approached it as such. We expected to loose money and we had the funding internally to handle this. Consider then that Out of Ammo has sold unusually well compared to many other VR games.

Consumers believe the platforms are the same, so should all be supported

This is not true. It is not Xboxone v PS4, where they are reasonably similar. They are very different and it is more expensive and difficult to support the different headsets. I have always hated multi-platform development because it tends to "dumb down" your game as you have to make concessions for the unique problems of all platforms. This is why I always try and do timed-exclusives with my PC games when considering consoles - I don't want to do to many platforms anyway so why not focus on the minimum?

So where do you get money to develop your games? How do you keep paying people? The only people who might be profitable will be microteams of one or two people with very popular games. The traditional approach has been to partner with platform developers for several reasons:

Reducing your platforms reduces the cost/risk of your project, as you are supporting only one SKU (one build) and one featureset.

Allows the platform owner to offset your risk and cost with their funds.

The most common examples of this are the consoles. At launch, they actually have very few customers and the initial games release for them, if not bundled and/or with (timed or otherwise) exclusivity deals - the console would not have the games it does. Developers have relied on this funding in order to make games.

How are the people who are against timed exclusives proposing that development studios pay for the development of the games?

Prediction: Without the subsidies of exclusives/subsidies less studios will make VR games

There is no money in it. I don't mean "money to go buy a Ferrari". I mean "money to make payroll". People talk about developers who have taken Oculus/Facebook/Intel money like they've sold out and gone off to buy an island somewhere. The reality is these developers made these deals because it is the only way their games could come out.

Here is an example. We considered doing some timed exclusivity for Out of Ammo, because it was uneconomical to continue development. We decided not to because the money available would just help cover costs. The amount of money was not going to make anyone wealthy. Frankly, I applaud Oculus for fronting up and giving real money out with really very little expectations in return other than some timed-exclusivity. Without this subsidization there is no way a studio can break even, let alone make a profit.

Some will point to GabeN's email about fronting costs for developers however I've yet to know anyone who's got that, has been told about it, or knows how to apply for this. It also means you need to get to a point you can access this. Additionally, HTC's "accelerator" requires you to setup your studio in specific places - and these specific places are incredibly expensive areas to live and run a studio. I think Valve/HTC's no subsidie/exclusive approach is good for the consumer in the short term - but terrible for studios.

As I result I think we will see more and more microprojects, and then more and more criticism that there are not more games with more content.

People are taking this personally and brigading developers

I think time-exclusives aren't worth the trouble (or the money) for virtual reality at the moment, so I disagree with the decisions of studios who have/are doing it. But not for the reasons that many have here, rather because it's not economically worth it. You're far better making a game for the PC or console, maybe even mobile. But what I don't do is go out and personally attack the developers, like has happened with SUPERHOT or Arizona Sunshine. So many assumptions, attacks, bordering on abuse in the comments for their posts and in the reviews. I honestly feel very sorry for the SUPERHOT developers.

And then, as happened with Arizona Sunshine, when the developers reverse an unpopular decision immediately - people suggest their mistake was unforgivable. This makes me very embarrassed to be part of this community.

Unless studios can make VR games you will not get more complex VR games

Studios need money to make the games. Previously early-stage platform development has been heavily subsidized by the platform makers. While it's great that Valve have said they want everything to be open - who is going to subsidize this?

I laugh now when people say or tweet me things like "I can't wait to see what your next VR game will be!" Honestly, I don't think I want to make any more VR games. Our staff who work on VR games all want to rotate off after their work is done. Privately, developers have been talking about this but nobody seems to feel comfortable talking about it publicly - which I think will ultimately be bad.

I think this sub should take a very hard look at it's attitude towards brigading reviews on products, and realize that with increased community power, comes increased community responsibility. As they say, beware what you wish for. You may be successfully destroying timed-exclusives and exclusives for Virtual Reality. But what you don't realize, is that has been the way that platform and hardware developers subsidize game development. If we don't replace that, there won't be money for making games.
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Jez » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:00 pm

Social media is the future for this stuff in my opinion. It's come out too early, too expensive and there just doesn't seem to be much take up in the gaming industry bothering to make big ticket games for it.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Raid » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:21 pm

Honestly, I think if DCS World were the only game with VR support, I'd still consider myself happy with the amount I've paid for the system. But you're right of course, the headsets alone are just too expensive for mass adoption. Sony are making inroads with PSVR, and Microsoft say they're going to be doing big things with VR and AR next year (though what that entails remains to be seen, we know they're aiming at producing a $300 VR headset), but PC gaming enthusiast-level stuff just isn't going to create an industry. While people say that social connectivity is VR's killer app, nobody's going to be sociable in VR if no-one else they know has the capability.

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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby eVoL » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:34 am

Your timing is impeccable DJ! :lol:
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby Rusty » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:55 pm

Just bought Arizona Sunshine and I must say it's my favourite VR game to date. Actual storyline. Great graphics.
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Re: Oculus Rift, Vive and VR in Gaming

Postby DjchunKfunK » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:50 am

eVoL wrote:Your timing is impeccable DJ! :lol:



Sorry. :(
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