Does having to work at a game make it pants?

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DjchunKfunK
 
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Postby DjchunKfunK » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:59 pm

I think Civ IV is slightly less complex than previous version, but I wouldn't hold it up as an example of a simpler game.
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Bob Arctor
 
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Postby Bob Arctor » Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:14 pm

Hmm not really. The city screen I find a lot more complex. Maybe it's just the presentation. I'm playing with all the expansions though, got great people springing up, religion, uprisings in taken cities, espionage points.

Civ III was fairly simple, only great introduction was culture.

But Civ4 has better advisors and lots of tips all over the place, integrated into the game, making it more accessible while being complex.
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Postby Jay » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:16 am

I'm not sure really. Whenever I played a CivIV game, I always read the manual whilst it was installing - slow PC y'see.

Mind you, I was initially overwhelmed when the BtS expansion came out, and I found the squad-shooter mod infuriating (although I fucking loved the comic book presentation of it - how many mods do that?!)
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Postby elgaucho » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:23 am

In answer to your question Neth - the answer is definitively "no".

Games with depth and subtlety which take time to get into are the champagne and Rolls-Royce's of gaming. You unpeel the various layers to the game, dissect how they work, and THEN the game begins in earnest. And for the very best of them, that can take months!

GalCiv 1 and 2 are perfect examples! Hard work, (certainly not aided by a lack of documentation in some cases), but oh so rewarding and challenging once you've learned the ropes!

I think what you're seeing here is not so much the work that is required to get into the game, but the various considerations of target audiences.

People read the hype on games and are not used to buying them - they're after something a little different and pick up a game outside their comfort zone. Good the game may be, but as already mentioned, having no prior exposure to any RPG's and kicking off into Morrowind might be a bit much! And rash that may be, but that's a premature reaction, and their loss.

I have to confess I miss a lot of the "pick up and play" games of yesteryore. Street Fighter, Super Mario, Shinobi, Probotector, Contra, Road Rash, micro Machines - all those oldie games could be picked up and played in a second, and they were awesome, and a lot of fun!

I find that, especially now, I don't have the time to commit to some of the longer games - the number of times I've kicked off Rome:TW but not been able to finish due to time constraints, or the number of RPG's I've abandoned bcause I've not had time to play them is really quite distressing at times... but I suppose I'd never say one of those games was "crap". I'd argue them based on their own merits! And that's the difference - some people just want the pick up and play, or are switched off immediately!

I still fondly remember Beyond Good and Evil! what an uber game!
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Crowley
 
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Postby Crowley » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:28 pm

Whaddya mean "still"? 'Twere only a few years ago!

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Postby Cerzi » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:09 pm

eVoL wrote:No. Dont be stupid



Sup Com (much like TA before it) for me is a sterile, dull, detatched and lifeless game. Is it to complex for me? No, its just one of the most boring RTS Ive played. You can zoom out as much as you want but if I dont give two hoots about the units running around below you fail.

If your argument is "if you dont like it you're not smart enough to understand it", then my argument is "if you like it, you're too stupid to see how crap it is" ¬_¬


It isn't about the game being too complex per se, but more to do with the old adage that "the more you put into something, the more you get out of it." SupCom is one of those games, up there with the likes of Quake, that becomes considerably more fun the better you get at it. Low-skill games are generally tedious and uninspiring, but as you reach higher skill tiers suddenly the depth of the game opens up massively, and there's a huge amount of satisfaction to be had.

So yeah, you can call games "sterile, dull, detached and lifeless" in a subjective way relating to your own skill level, but I think everyone has the capacity to enjoy them if they learn to play well enough. I expect grandmaster chess players find a lot more satisfaction playing than a ten year old having a random game with only basic knowledge of the rules.

I know because I've felt exactly the same way as you about some games, but then really forced myself to get good just to see what the fuss is about, and it's incredible just how much more enjoyable these games become.

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Rook
 
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Postby Rook » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:50 pm

'Tis like Counter-Strike. Once you get genuinely good at it, it's nirvana. Well, not so much these days ¬_¬

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Postby Gibby » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:55 pm

I like Neth's point and this is a great thread. I was thinking about this lately as I seem to have the attention span of a gnat when it comes to games of late. Medieval 2 Total War for example, has you start in the year 1080AD, with basic technology and tiny armies consisting of the more dull units. Only after many, many hours of play do you get the epic sizeable battles that we all crave.

How often I've started a campaign and got bored before I get to that stage is embarrassing. SupCom is a good example too, it takes ages to really get a game going, but I'll be damned if I haven't given up a hundred times trying.

Perhaps it's just the mentality and patience of the gamer. I hope I can settle my mind down and get on with such games a bit better in the future.

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Postby Fat Zombie » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:25 pm

I don't mind a learning curve, even if it is steep. What I don't like are strategy games that I never seem to improve at despite dedicating miles of time to learning and improving.

But, I guess one factor for me is my very short long-term attention span; I'll really want to play a specific game for a period of time, then my interest will wane in an exponential fashion a short time afterwards, when I find that I really want to play this other game. Then, after several months, I want to play that particular game again. And so it continues.

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Postby Plant » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:08 pm

Rook wrote:'Tis like Counter-Strike.


Extremely easy, straightforward from the off and full of bad-mouthed pre-teens?
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Rook
 
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Postby Rook » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:13 pm

Plant wrote:
Rook wrote:'Tis like Counter-Strike.


Extremely easy, straightforward from the off and full of bad-mouthed pre-teens?


I was speaking largely from a competitive standpoint ¬_¬

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Cerzi
 
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Postby Cerzi » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:12 pm

Plant wrote:
Rook wrote:'Tis like Counter-Strike.


Extremely easy, straightforward from the off and full of bad-mouthed pre-teens?


you've massively missed the point, then

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Postby Jay » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:14 am

Rook wrote:
Plant wrote:
Rook wrote:'Tis like Counter-Strike.


Extremely easy, straightforward from the off and full of bad-mouthed pre-teens?


I was speaking largely from a competitive standpoint ¬_¬


I absolutely refuse to get good with the AWP. Any other weapon is fine, but if you bother to get good with the AWP, you've completely missed the point of the game. Only way I can forgive AWP use is if you're playing in a competitive situation
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