Euro 2012

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Zael
 
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Zael » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:17 pm

Which ones could he have saved though? Ballotelli's and Nocerino's were right in the corner, Pirlo's was just class, Diamanti's was ok and Montolivo missed. So really he only had 1 chance out of 5.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Sly Boots » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:33 am

katarn wrote:
Sly Boots wrote:This was a classic Hodgson team with everything that entails, personnel may change a bit but the strategy won't.

What other strategy could England have with the creative players at their disposal? Also, why is it only a Hodgson problem when the same issues were there under Cappello?

The same players are making the same fundamental mistakes it seems to me. I'm genuinely interested in what a different manager could have done when the players are struggling with things such as ball control and passing, especially when under pressure.


The main issue is lots of people seem to be saying "he did the best we could under the circumstances, but we'll get better with different players/time etc".

We won't. Honestly.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby gpa-gone-west » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:36 am

What happened last night I can live with, the fact is its the level we are at. As long as the team that go out there put 100% in and look like they actually care, its all anyone can ask. What happened in South Africa was not acceptable. Some of them looked like they didn't care or worse, didn't want to be there. At least this time they tried, and from what I could tell, played without fear. Italy were better than us. I can live with that.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby katarn » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:31 am

Sly Boots wrote:
katarn wrote:
Sly Boots wrote:This was a classic Hodgson team with everything that entails, personnel may change a bit but the strategy won't.

What other strategy could England have with the creative players at their disposal? Also, why is it only a Hodgson problem when the same issues were there under Cappello?

The same players are making the same fundamental mistakes it seems to me. I'm genuinely interested in what a different manager could have done when the players are struggling with things such as ball control and passing, especially when under pressure.


The main issue is lots of people seem to be saying "he did the best we could under the circumstances, but we'll get better with different players/time etc".

We won't. Honestly.

Oh, I know that's what you think of Hodgson personally.

I just don't really think there's a magic strategy button for a manager to get this group of players suddenly playing well. At this level, whatever system they use they need to be able to retain some possession, pass the ball around the pitch, good first touch under pressure, etc. Basic fundamentals.

England, while good fighters, struggle with that on the whole - apart from the occasional passage of play when they string some passes together (like when Italy had a sloppy spell in the opening 20mins) - pretty much any strategy is going to be fragile in the face of a technically superior opposing team to start with.

I mean, it's never even occurred to me to question Roy's strategy tbh. There are far deeper issues to be concerned about. But he's brought the team together and already done better than Capello.

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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Sly Boots » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:46 am

He's done better than Capello.

But while he's manager, England will always concede the lion's share of possession (I think we averaged around 35% across the four games, it was below that for the last one), sit deep in numbers, stick rigidly to two banks of four players, punt it long (not always, but this is the main way the team will try to relieve the pressure the above approach leaves it open to) and try to nick something.

As he said when he was at Liverpool, he's played this way for 35 years in management, and he sees no reason to change it now.

Whether you think that's the best England can hope for is up to you, we're certainly a limited nation technically.

I expect we'll qualify for ease for the major tournaments, as smaller, even more limited nations will find that packed defence a hard nut to crack and we're still good enough to beat European nations outside the top 5 or 6 (Spain, Germany, Holland, Italy, France to a lesser extent) consistently, and may even have a good record in group stages unless we land in a group of death like B at these Euros.

But despite that it's not going to be much fun, and I don't see us really pushing on as a nation and trying to better ourselves while he's manager.

Despite how it might seem, I don't have a particular axe to grind with Hodgson (though I'm eternally grateful he no longer manages Liverpool), and as I don't really get that worked up about the England team, the above doesn't really bother me overmuch. It's just the way it's gunna be, and all the Wilshere's and Cleverly's in the world won't change that.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby katarn » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:48 am

Yeah, I agree that's the way it's gunna be. But more because of the quality of players than whatever manager/strategy we have.

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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Sly Boots » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:03 am

Personally I'm disappointed we didn't go down the same road Germany did a decade or so ago, when they appointed Klinsmann and Yogi Love to transform the nation's football from the bottom to the top... they're now reaping the benefits of redevelopment from the grassroots up, buy-in from the club academies and a coherent, long-term vision set down by the national team management. Every single level of the national setup, from the youth teams to the seniors, is geared around getting them to play the same way as the seniors. These are generations of kids who will grow up used to playing together and totally comfortable with the tactics they're asked to play. We get Stuart Pearce.

France did a similar thing in the years prior to their Euro and WC win (Houllier was heavily involved in transforming youth development in the country, part of the reason we later went for him as manager).

We just won't get that with Hodgson. That's not his fault, the FA were the ones who employed someone to steady the ship in the short-term, rather than just write us off for the next 3 or so tournaments but commit to a long-term vision.

Maybe they're afraid of the backlash if we go through a period of short-term pain for long-term gain, maybe they just don't know where to start with such an approach, or maybe they're quite happy for us to toddle on as we are, eternal quarter-finalists who go out on penalties.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby deetz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:29 pm

Sly Boots wrote:Maybe they're afraid of the backlash if we go through a period of short-term pain for long-term gain, maybe they just don't know where to start with such an approach, or maybe they're quite happy for us to toddle on as we are, eternal quarter-finalists who go out on penalties.


Englands already had a decade or more of under-performance (nicest way of putting it). They really have nothing to lose from trying something new. Have a look at what other succesful countries like France and Germany have done. Have a look at what the England cricket team have done over the past 10 years.

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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Wolfy » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:29 pm

Sly Boots wrote:Personally I'm disappointed we didn't go down the same road Germany did a decade or so ago, when they appointed Klinsmann and Yogi Love to transform the nation's football from the bottom to the top... they're now reaping the benefits of redevelopment from the grassroots up, buy-in from the club academies and a coherent, long-term vision set down by the national team management. Every single level of the national setup, from the youth teams to the seniors, is geared around getting them to play the same way as the seniors. These are generations of kids who will grow up used to playing together and totally comfortable with the tactics they're asked to play. We get Stuart Pearce.

France did a similar thing in the years prior to their Euro and WC win (Houllier was heavily involved in transforming youth development in the country, part of the reason we later went for him as manager.


Even though I'm a bit of a blinkered blue-tinted spectacled city fan, I' hoping this Etihad Campus we're gonna do (2 new stadiums, a college, 18 training pitches and all that) will push that kinda grassroots development. At the moment, I'm not sure what quality English players are coming through.. There's not much anyway.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby DjchunKfunK » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:30 pm

We did well enough considering the player Hodgson had at his disposal and the time he had to prepare. I think it is a bit harsh that there are certain people within the press already blaming him for us playing so badly. As to the point of whether we will get better or this is the best we can hope for I don't know. We do have some good players coming through especially the two from Arsenal.

I think that as a team they need to work more on their off-the-ball positioning. The reason why we can't keep the ball as well as other countries doesn't have anything to do with our passing ability, but more to do with the movement of players not offering the guy on the ball an outlet. No more so was this demonstrated than whenever we had a throw-in. No one would show for the ball and when Cole got booked against the Ukraine for time wasting he actually had no one to throw the ball to. This has been a problem for England for a long time now and needs to be sorted. You can try and make players feel as comfortable as possible on the ball, but if they have no teams mates to pass to then it doesn't matter how comfortable they are or how well they pass the ball, they will still end up giving it away.

As for why we haven't copied the Germans and French it's simple really. The Press would never allow us the required time to rebuild. They would constantly want us to keep up the level of performance ie qualify for tournaments and challenge in said tournaments; whilst trying to rebuild. Any slip and they would be calling for the managers head.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Sly Boots » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:48 pm

Pretty much what I decided in the end. Sad, really, but we're in a vicious cycle of appointing managers, achieving little and sacking them after a few years, and without a major shake-up at a fundamental level, it's hard to see how we can break out of that.

I remember at the time, World Cup 2006 possibly, Germany went in to the tournament with Klinsmann's young team. Their own media were on their backs, and the nation as a whole wasn't expecting anything because their results up to then had been average at best. Everything clicked into place for them at that tournament and they've continued to build on that. As the veterans of that side retired they've continued to seamlessly bring in the youth.

You could even look at Spain and argue that the main reason they're dominating now is down to the approach of La Masia at Barcelona that was started off by Cruyff - again they sat down, said "this is how we want to play" and make sure they ingrained that into their kids from an early age, and now most of the Spanish team, if not currently at Barca, was at least educated at La Masia.

Maybe part of it is the English culture of the godlike manager figure. What it needs is for the top bods to sit down, as Germany and Barca did, ask themselves how they want the senior national side to play, and then work out every conceivable step that needs to happen to make it so.

Germany, Spain, France at their best - they had/have good players, sure, but they win because they're a functional team. It seems like England's approach is to throw together the most talented individuals they can and hope for the best.

If there's one thing Hodgson has done that McLaren and Capello never did, it's get England playing as a team and sticking to the strategy he sets out.

But we're doomed to mediocrity until the FA plans for the future and the media faces the fact the something needs to change, and that they're part of the problem.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Me » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:07 pm

You know what, this is all Charles Hughes fault. He was he director of coaching at the FA for fucks sake.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Sly Boots » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:27 am

30 Cristiano Ronaldo has had more shots in his first four games at Euro 2012 than the entire England squad (29) had at the tournament

20 Italy had more shots on target in their quarter-final match than England had in total in their four matches in Ukraine

88 England conceded more than twice as many shots to France, Sweden, Ukraine and Italy than they had against those teams

39 England had on average 39% of the possession in their four games, their lowest figure at a tournament since Euro 1980

29 Ashley Young and James Milner put in 29 crosses in the four games. Only three reached an England team-mate

300 England averaged 300 passes per match. The four semi-finalists have averaged 479

15 England completed only 15 passes in the 15 minutes of the second period of extra-time against Italy

18 England's most successful passing combination against Italy was the goalkeeper Joe Hart to the substitute striker Andy Carroll

115 Andrea Pirlo had more passes against England than England's four starting midfielders had against Italy

18 Mesut Ozil has created 18 chances in Germany's four games. Steven Gerrard, England's most prolific chance creator, has made six

102 England ran on average 102km in their four matches. Italy ran 7.5km further on average per match

86 England have had the most tackles in the tournament, with Steven Gerrard's 18 the most of any player

29 England have blocked the most shots at Euro 2012, 17 more than Italy, 19 more than Germany, 21 more than Portugal and 24 more than Spain


That's grim reading.
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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Jez » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:48 am

A lot of that comes down to just getting the ball in the net and be damned what the shot ratios say plenty of people would say that england teams of the past thrived on soaking up that sort of pressure then turning a team on its heels and getting the ball in their net reversing the flow of the game. I seem to remember the team of the 90 world cup being like that.

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Re: Euro 2012

Postby Sly Boots » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:53 am

If you're conceding twice as many shots are you're taking (and Sweden and Ukraine are pretty poor teams), balance of probabilities is that you won't win the match.
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