Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

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Sly Boots
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 12:43 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:Well you finished 7th in his last year in charge which is why he got the boot I believe.


You spotted my deliberate mistake :P

Given his previous record and the fact that for the preceding three transfers windows he'd been forced by the owners to operate at a profit, were the same thing to happen under our current owners (7th place), he wouldn't have gone. It was a weird time, the then owners hated him for challenging them at every turn, they were looking to sell up and reportedly believed the club would be a more attractive purchase without such a strong (and popular) manager awaiting potential buyers.

I would love for him to get another shot at it - this time given proper financial backing and support from the boardroom. I would be surprised if it were to happen, though.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 12:46 pm

Zael wrote:I think if you hit the woodwork 30 times, you need to stop cursing your luck and start practising your finishing a bit more.


Where did I curse our luck? I simply stated a fact. The difference between success and failure can be slim at times.

My WHU-supporting mate said the same thing when they were relegated the time before last. Apparently that year they'd had more shots on goal than in the previous season (when they finished comfortably mid-table), but hit the woodwork an abnormal number of times, going down as a result.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Zael » Thu May 17, 2012 12:49 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Where did I curse our luck? I simply stated a fact. The difference between success and failure can be slim at times.

My WHU-supporting mate said the same thing when they were relegated the time before last. Apparently that year they'd had more shots on goal than in the previous season (when they finished comfortably mid-table), but hit the woodwork an abnormal number of times, going down as a result.


But the difference wasn't that slim. A miss is a miss, and hitting the post isn't hitting your shot on target. Had Liverpool come up against amazing goalkeeping performances or scored legitmate goals that were disallowed then yeah fair enough. But missing your shots, whether they hit woodwork or not is still not good enough. I'm not having a go at you Sly, but I'm hearing this stat from a lot of Liverpool fans, and I really think it has nothing to do with Liverpools awful season.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 1:00 pm

As an Arsenal fan I'm assuming you didn't watch the majority of our games, but the fact is this season, especially at Anfield, it did actually seem as though every goalie we faced played a worldie. Vorm springs to mind, but he was far from the only one.

Believe me, I'm not bemoaning anything. Our season is what it was. We played bloody well at times but frequently dropped points when we shouldn't have done - the fact was our strikers weren't good enough to score the goals that made results safe when the standard of our play said they should have been. We've had our share of stinkers as well, particularly since the CC final for some reason.

It's all so up in the air that at this point I can't even say 'we will be better next season', until we know who the manager will be, or who we are able to sign. But I do believe that things aren't as bad as they currently seem. There are some gaping holes in the squad, but the foundations are mostly in place. If we can add a bit of quality, appoint the right manager, then we'll be back in a season or two.

Or we could just be in the middle of a death spiral, and in a couple of years I'll be regaling everyone with nostalgic tales about when Roy Hodgson was manager and lead us to the heady heights of 12th in the table...
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Zael » Thu May 17, 2012 1:12 pm

Sly Boots wrote:As an Arsenal fan I'm assuming you didn't watch the majority of our games, but the fact is this season, especially at Anfield, it did actually seem as though every goalie we faced played a worldie. Vorm springs to mind, but he was far from the only one.


Nope, I usually watch about 6 games of football every weekend and Liverpool tend to always be playing on either Sky, Setanta or ESPN so I caught quite a lot of their games.I've even been to Anfield this season for the Stoke game, a good friend of mine lives over there. I can't say Liverpool came up against an irregular amount of good goalkeeping. Vorm is a pretty great goalkeeper anyway.

I really don't think Liverpool deserved to be any higher than 8th (you could argue they should be higher than Everton, but they had an amazing finish to the season). They certainly played well and lost a few games I'll give you that, but Liverpool relied heavily on Suarez who isn't an out and out finisher and they suffered for it and if you can't score you don't deserve to win. Their midfield was a shambles, with players like Henderson and Downing and Gerrard had a pretty poor season. The defence didn't really do the team any favours with only 12 cleansheets in 38 games, and if you're not scoring you need to be keeping clean sheets.

So I really don't think there was any narrow margin between Liverpools season.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 1:28 pm

Zael wrote:
Sly Boots wrote:As an Arsenal fan I'm assuming you didn't watch the majority of our games, but the fact is this season, especially at Anfield, it did actually seem as though every goalie we faced played a worldie. Vorm springs to mind, but he was far from the only one.


I really don't think Liverpool deserved to be any higher than 8th (you could argue they should be higher than Everton, but they had an amazing finish to the season). They certainly played well and lost a few games I'll give you that, but Liverpool relied heavily on Suarez who isn't an out and out finisher and they suffered for it and if you can't score you don't deserve to win. Their midfield was a shambles, with players like Henderson and Downing and Gerrard had a pretty poor season. The defence didn't really do the team any favours with only 12 cleansheets in 38 games, and if you're not scoring you need to be keeping clean sheets.

So I really don't think there was any narrow margin between Liverpools season.


I agree with the first bit quoted, and I think two factors, both of which I vocally protested on other LFC forums, hit us. First one was not getting in cover for Lucas in the summer - nobody else seemed to think it was a problem "because we have Spearing", but I just knew we were an injury to him away from being in serious trouble. The fact that our pre-Lucas injury form (over Christmas) was good enough to almost counter our inability to win any games in 2012 shows that, had we brought in proper cover, our season could have been better.

Second factor was I could see in August we were woefully short up front - Suarez is a very good no10 but you can't really count on him for more than 15 or so goals a season (he got 17 in the end, all comps). He had a good season for Ajax, with nearly 50 goals, but I've seen stats that in terms of finishing, he's been the same at both clubs (essentially, he needs to get 8 chances to score 1, in Holland he was just getting a lot more chances).

Our failure to bring in a striker in January when this was painfully apparent by now to everyone - and when players like Jelavic and Cisse were available on the cheap - was simply inexcusable.

As for narrow margins... an MUFC fan I know sent me this link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... rrors.html

It seems the adage about ref errors evening themselves out over the course of a season wasn't true for us.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Zael » Thu May 17, 2012 1:38 pm

Sly Boots wrote:I agree with the first bit quoted, and I think two factors, both of which I vocally protested on other LFC forums, hit us. First one was not getting in cover for Lucas in the summer - nobody else seemed to think it was a problem "because we have Spearing", but I just knew we were an injury to him away from being in serious trouble. The fact that our pre-Lucas injury form (over Christmas) was good enough to almost counter our inability to win any games in 2012 shows that, had we brought in proper cover, our season could have been better.


It's maddening how little Lucas is rated. Any time I go drinking with my friends, there's a 50% chance it'll decend into an argument about Lucas. I think he's pretty incredible, but so few people rate him. I thought after this season, where Liverpool have gone without him, he would finally be recognised, but that hasn't happened unfortunately.


Sly Boots wrote:As for narrow margins... an MUFC fan I know sent me this link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... rrors.html

It seems the adage about ref errors evening themselves out over the course of a season wasn't true for us.


That's a pretty cool article. I've wanted something like that to throw in the face of anyone who trots out that stupid "evens out" phrase. Still though, even with that Liverpool would have only gotten a 3 point gain, hardly season changing.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 1:43 pm

Zael wrote:
Sly Boots wrote:
That's a pretty cool article. I've wanted something like that to throw in the face of anyone who trots out that stupid "evens out" phrase. Still though, even with that Liverpool would have only gotten a 3 point gain, hardly season changing.


On its own, sure (although we'd have finished above Everton), but when you throw in superhuman goalkeepers, abnormal amount of woodwork hit, the whole Suarez saga... all adds up.

I'll never find it now, but there was another interesting independent study that was the PL table adjusted to account for the number of times each club hit the woodwork, and what they table would look like if they had gone in instead. We were 5th, and a few points off the CL spots.

Actually, easier than I thought, here 'tis:

http://infostradalive.com/post/20169494 ... k-analysis

It's from a month or so before the end of the season, but anyway. Again, this is from a 'this is interesting, isn't it?' perspective rather than a 'woe is us' perspective.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Zael » Thu May 17, 2012 1:44 pm

Sly Boots wrote:On its own, sure (although we'd have finished above Everton), but when you throw in superhuman goalkeepers, abnormal amount of woodwork hit, the whole Suarez saga... all adds up


You're starting to sound lIke Kenny, Sly. :P
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 1:45 pm

Zael wrote:
Sly Boots wrote:On its own, sure (although we'd have finished above Everton), but when you throw in superhuman goalkeepers, abnormal amount of woodwork hit, the whole Suarez saga... all adds up


You're starting to sound lIke Kenny, Sly. :P


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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby katarn » Thu May 17, 2012 1:50 pm

The problem with the whole woodwork thing is that there are other clubs who probably fired in loads of shots which almost grazed the woodwork and hit the side netting - which aren't being counted - just a few mm or so further than the Liverpool shots. To me, they're not really any different. They're both very close misses.

So it gets difficult to weigh up whether it should even be talked about or not - unless someone is also tallying up all those other shots that were pretty much just as close, and they can also be lumped in with the stats, then I don't really pay much heed to it.

There might even be other clubs that have even been more 'unlucky' than Liverpool in that regard, who knows.

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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 1:53 pm

katarn wrote:The problem with the whole woodwork thing is that there are other clubs who probably fired in loads of shots which almost grazed the woodwork and hit the side netting - which aren't being counted - just a few mm or so further than the Liverpool shots. To me, they're not really any different. They're both very close misses.

So it gets difficult to weigh up whether it should even be talked about or not - unless someone is also tallying up all those other shots that were pretty much just as close, and they can also be lumped in with the stats, then I don't really pay much heed to it.

There might even be other clubs that have even been more 'unlucky' than Liverpool in that regard, who knows.


The bottom of the league was pretty interesting, though - Blackburn would have been comfortably midtable!
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby DjchunKfunK » Thu May 17, 2012 4:31 pm

katarn wrote:The problem with the whole woodwork thing is that there are other clubs who probably fired in loads of shots which almost grazed the woodwork and hit the side netting - which aren't being counted - just a few mm or so further than the Liverpool shots. To me, they're not really any different. They're both very close misses.

So it gets difficult to weigh up whether it should even be talked about or not - unless someone is also tallying up all those other shots that were pretty much just as close, and they can also be lumped in with the stats, then I don't really pay much heed to it.

There might even be other clubs that have even been more 'unlucky' than Liverpool in that regard, who knows.


This.

You can easily add up various stats that you feel unfairly went against you as reasons why your club did badly. As an Arsenal fan I could point towards the fact that we were not awarded a single penalty at home as a reason why we didn't do better this season. But at the end of the day it comes down to the players and the manager. They are the ones who missed the shots, conceded the goals, or couldn't come up with the chances in the first place to make the near misses or poor refereeing decisions irrelevant. Trying to blame anything else just sounds petty.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby Sly Boots » Thu May 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Are Arsenal fans still calling for Wenger's head, or do they like him again now? I find it hard to keep up sometimes.
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Re: Premiership and Championship footy 2011/12

Postby DjchunKfunK » Thu May 17, 2012 5:04 pm

I would still like him to go, but am prepared to wait a season so we can get Guardiola next year. :) In general I think the fans are still split, but a growing number are become apathetic as they don't see the board ever getting rid of Wenger, no mater what he does.
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