Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

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Mantis
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Mantis » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:59 am

I watched a bit of TB's video last night. He's not really in much of a position to complain given how heavily he has supported such business practices in other titles in the past.

His new point of view is completely right of course. Micro transactions like that simply do not belong in full price games, at all. Period. You are actively making this industry worse if you buy games which use these models. It's almost always EA that tests the waters by pushing these boundaries the most and they are actively getting worse every year, it's been the case in their sports titles for a few years now. Give an inch and they take a mile. I've spoken against having micro payments in games for years but nobody seems to care that they're being ripped off. Not buying them isn't a valid reason for still supporting the game, because their very existence within a title has an impact on the entire playerbase. It's also introducing under 18s to real money gambling, which is an entirely separate question of ethics.

The only thing that's going to stop this is if government's start legislating against these systems because they are outright gambling. Publishers like EA and co will back off quickly from these dodgy as hell practices if their games suddenly start getting slapped with 18+ ratings because they include gambling mechanics.

If you just shrug your shoulders and say 'Meh' at this then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Sorry, Dave, that wasn't really intended as a tirade against you. I just fucking hate paid loot boxes. -_-

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Medicine Man » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:37 pm

I don't buy these games Mantis. As much I would like to sometimes and often miss out on great games as a result I like to think I am at least a man of principle therefor I shall stick to my guns as they say and continue to not support games with such heinous gambling systems included. #teammantis

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Jez » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:15 pm

Have no real issue with in game transactions as long as they don't offer a direct advantage against those that don't. A good example of this for me is Elite Dangerous, paint jobs and cosmetics are sold offer no advantage and are cheap also. I like this I feel as though I'm continuing to support a unique game. It's unique in that there isn't an elite dangerous 2 or 3 or 4 or 44 every year. It's a true 10 year project for frontier.

On the other hand titles/franchises that release every year or two I absolutely will not buy in game stuff whatsoever.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Sly Boots » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:45 pm

Jez wrote:Have no real issue with in game transactions as long as they don't offer a direct advantage against those that don't. A good example of this for me is Elite Dangerous, paint jobs and cosmetics are sold offer no advantage and are cheap also. I like this I feel as though I'm continuing to support a unique game. It's unique in that there isn't an elite dangerous 2 or 3 or 4 or 44 every year. It's a true 10 year project for frontier.

On the other hand titles/franchises that release every year or two I absolutely will not buy in game stuff whatsoever.


It's worth watching one of the vids mentioned or at least reading up on it before purchasing, Jez. It sounds as though the loot boxes are integral to the progression system in this and unlocking anything except the basic (ie shit) guns. Based on the beta, AJ calculates at the existing drop rates it will take around 3,600 hours of play to unlock all the guns in the game (2/3 for each class), which is obviously meant to push people into forking over real-life cash to just buy the necessary boxes much sooner.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Mantis » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:42 pm

Even if the loot boxes weren't tied to the progression and were purely for cosmetic items, they'd still be wrong to include them. Paying real money to gamble for random items, even skins, is exploitative and needs to be put to a stop.

Ingame micro transactions where you buy something for an upfront price and receive a guaranteed item are very different. Largely there's nothing wrong with a game using that model as a way of generating extra revenue post-launch, particularly when it can often mean that actual new playable content for the game is often released for free. That model only becomes a problem when you're buying things for real money that actually give you an advantage in the game.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Jez » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:25 pm

Sly Boots wrote:
Jez wrote:Have no real issue with in game transactions as long as they don't offer a direct advantage against those that don't. A good example of this for me is Elite Dangerous, paint jobs and cosmetics are sold offer no advantage and are cheap also. I like this I feel as though I'm continuing to support a unique game. It's unique in that there isn't an elite dangerous 2 or 3 or 4 or 44 every year. It's a true 10 year project for frontier.

On the other hand titles/franchises that release every year or two I absolutely will not buy in game stuff whatsoever.


It's worth watching one of the vids mentioned or at least reading up on it before purchasing, Jez. It sounds as though the loot boxes are integral to the progression system in this and unlocking anything except the basic (ie shit) guns. Based on the beta, AJ calculates at the existing drop rates it will take around 3,600 hours of play to unlock all the guns in the game (2/3 for each class), which is obviously meant to push people into forking over real-life cash to just buy the necessary boxes much sooner.


Oh yeah I agree. I definitely won't be buying them in this. If I do buy the game at all considering the points of view reviews have raised.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Prey » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:53 pm

Mantis wrote:If you just shrug your shoulders and say 'Meh' at this then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Sorry, Dave, that wasn't really intended as a tirade against you. I just fucking hate paid loot boxes. -_-


It's fine dude. If anything you opened my eyes to everything as I'd previously not read much concerning the loot crate handling within the game but after just reading Eurogamer's article I've decided although I DID have fun and for me at least it was the improvement I hoped for gameplay wise the loot box issue needs to be seriously addressed before release...

When opening a combination of daily loot crates, gifted loot crates and earned loot crates for levelling up, or when opening loot crates bought with in-game currency. But as in-game currency is awarded at a flat rate for a team regardless of performance, this could take a long time.

It gets worse when you consider there are bronze, silver, and gold versions of each Star Card - plus a fourth tier I'm not sure the name of. For instance, Boba Fett has a Star Card ability called Death From Above which grants him damage reduction while jetpacking and using Rocket Barrage. Its lowest tier damage reduction (bronze) is 50 per cent, and it's highest tier 100 per cent. That's a huge difference.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017- ... m#comments

The direct irony being that the other two games I am very much interested in ALSO include loot crate systems. What has become of gaming in 2017? IDK.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Paul » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:48 am

I was going to buy the game just for the single player, but on principle alone I'll be swerving.

EA seem to be incredibly proficient at ruining all that I once held dear.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:12 am

Loot boxes are not the best solution, but they are one of the better ones to the constant rise in the cost of making games. The cost of buying games has not risen that much in the last 20 years, they have certainly not tracked with the cost of making games. As it stands I'd take loot boxes that I can just ignore over an extra £5-£10 on the price of a game.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Mantis » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:38 pm

These loot boxes are less to do with countering the growing cost of development and more a facet of growing publisher greed. Simply ignoring them doesn't change how evil and manipulative they are, people drop a lot of cash on these things because of the psychological effect they have where you find yourself thinking "the next one will have some good loot in". As soon as publishers realised they could hook people on this gambling and turn their £40 RRP game into something people will potentially plough hundreds into that was it.

They are ruining this industry. I'd rather pay an extra fiver for something, or just watch all the AAA publishers go under.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:50 pm

I don't disagree that they can be an issue for some people regarding their gambling nature, however I think to say they are ruining the industry is a bit of a stretch.

There is also the fact that in some cases they are used correctly, DOTA 2 for instance, and help to support a ftp game.

There are cases where they are used to exploit, as with everything in life, but to tar all loot boxes with the same brush is unfair.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Jez » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:29 pm

Dunno about the cost of games point either. In the case of this game the rrp from origin is 54 quid for the standard edition according to Prey earlier. Sure it isn't the industry average but the game is also selling these loot box jump-ups to boot.

Bit much in this case I think.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:47 pm

Yeah some publishers are using it to just bolster their profits, but not every top title sells 15 million copies.

The cost of producing games only goes in one direction and many top tier titles are going open world which is the most expensive type of game to make.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Mantis » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:45 pm

Still doesn't justify the existence of the things. There are other, far more ethical ways of generating extra revenue for your game beyond the initial sale. And the fact that studios seem increasingly incapable of making something without blowing enormous amounts of cash is their problem and almost certainly down to poor management within the studios. Not every game needs to be open world and have ludicrous amounts of money spent on plethora's of artists; in fact I dare say the industry might be a little more interesting if the big studios weren't all so desperate to make games that were just carbon copies of one another.

I don't know what the budget was for this Star Wars game, but I dare say it probably didn't need to be as large was it was, given that all they've really done is slightly improve the first game, which ultimately is still nothing but a more arcadey Battlefield clone. AAA studios and publishers are blackholes that suck up money.

I don't really buy your argument that some studios use loot boxes in a positive way either. I'm not familiar with how it works in DotA 2, but regardless, show me one developer that uses them in a genuine manner and I'll show you ten that don't. The whole system is endemic of free to play mobile game models slowly sneaking their way into full price titles. They are a pox on our hobby.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront III Holiday 2015

Postby Paul » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:51 pm

Re: 'the cost of producing a game', let's not forget that gaming is huge compared to what it used to be. Their return will be astronomical compared to ~ 15/20 years ago. The industry is worth billions these days; this is no longer the 90s, and gaming is no longer a niche activity for basement dwellers.

Obvious cat is obvious and all that, but all this talk about developers not making much money... come on.

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