Star Wars Battlefront 2

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Wrathbone
 
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Wrathbone » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:00 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Like it or not, and sorry if this sounds harsh, but you're part of the problem.


I'm sorry, but that's just rubbish. I agree that there has been a lot of misuse of loot boxes this year, but this is the classic taring everything with the same brush. You are within your rights to disagree that loot boxes serve any purpose, but to claim anyone who buys them is somehow responsible for EA being dicks is way off base.


I don't think it is way off base. If you buy cosmetic microtransactions then, innocent as it may seem, you're normalising and validating a way of funding games which can be exploitative.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:03 pm

That kind of thinking can be applied to absolutely anything though. If you buy clothes are you responsible for the companies who employ kids in Bangladesh? Any system can be turned and used in an exploitative way.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Wrathbone » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:08 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:That kind of thinking can be applied to absolutely anything though. If you buy clothes are you responsible for the companies who employ kids in Bangladesh?


Well... yeah, in part. I'm not naive enough to believe none of my clothes originated in a sweatshop, but if I'm aware of a specific brand using exploitative measures then I'll actively avoid them. The difference is I need to wear clothes and there aren't that many available which I can say with confidence were produced ethically, whereas there are plenty of games I can buy which don't have microtransaction crap associated with them.

I'm aware I'm a hypocrite, though. I have an ipad for instance, and I know the conditions in which they're made are horrific. I am wildly imperfect, and with regards to the ipad I accept that I'm part of that particular problem. I choose not to be part of the microtransaction problem, however.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:13 pm

That was an extreme example used as a demonstration. The point remains that anything can be turned to be used in an exploitative way.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Wrathbone » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:14 pm

Yes, but microtransactions are designed to be exploitative. That's how they make money.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Sly Boots » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:14 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
Like it or not, and sorry if this sounds harsh, but you're part of the problem.


I'm sorry, but that's just rubbish. I agree that there has been a lot of misuse of loot boxes this year, but this is the classic taring everything with the same brush. You are within your rights to disagree that loot boxes serve any purpose, but to claim anyone who buys them is somehow responsible for EA being dicks is way off base.


It's the drip-drip-drip approach. This has been ramping up for years, going that little bit further each time until the model has become normalised. Another few years and people will be thinking nostalgically about the good old days when microtransactions were 'only' for something cosmetic or non-gameplay related. It should be very clear by now that this has been part of a long-term strategy to 're-educate' players (they probably even call it something horrid like that among themselves) to think nothing about paying more on a game they've already paid for. You normalise it and take it another step. There's outcry and you take it back a quarter-step. Then you take another step, rinse and repeat.

And the worst part is their PR strategy seemingly relies on the players themselves to push back against other players who call them out on it. It's like a form of Stockholm Syndrome where you have to pay your abuser.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Mantis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:16 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:That was an extreme example used as a demonstration. The point remains that anything can be turned to be used in an exploitative way.


That doesn't stop it being true though. We're all guilty of it for various things I'm sure, like for clothing items as Wrath says. Simple fact is that by buying or supporting their stuff you are propagating it. There might not be much you think you can do about it as an individual, but it doesn't make it any less true that these exploitative practices wouldn't exist if we didn't all buy into them.

I buy electronic goods made cheap in China, I buy sweatshop clothes more likely than not; I realise that, but we're all lazy westerners who can't be bothered to do anything about it. There are always alternatives available if we really wanted to avoid doing these things.

With games it's easy, you just don't buy the dodgy ones that are full of dodgy microtransaction systems.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Tank » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:25 pm

TB has raised a good point about the reviews.

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I have seen 2 reviews so far (Eurogamer and Trusted Reviews) and both have them mentioned the awful stuff but seem to not mark it down because of it. Its weird.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:36 pm

With games it's easy, you just don't buy the dodgy ones that are full of dodgy microtransaction systems.


I don't have an issue with this, I'm taking issue at the idea that anyone who buys a microtransaction in a game is part of the problem.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Mantis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:44 pm

Don't take it personally, but you are. You can't buy a microtransaction with good intentions. You either contribute to their system or you don't, and if you do contribute then you are paying money into a system which more often than not is largely a cynical cash grab. It's pretty black and white in those terms. You've become their customer, you're giving them revenue and profits off an activity which will only encourage them to continue with, you can't just wash your hands of it at that point and take the stance "Well, it's not my fault they're doing this".

Though note in this instance we're not talking all microtransactions, specifically random chance loot boxes. As I said on the other page, microtransactions can be a good method to support future development if they're done in a more ethical way.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Sly Boots » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:46 pm

DjchunKfunK wrote:
With games it's easy, you just don't buy the dodgy ones that are full of dodgy microtransaction systems.


I don't have an issue with this, I'm taking issue at the idea that anyone who buys a microtransaction in a game is part of the problem.


Why?

I'd pull back slightly and say that if it's a free-to-play game there's more of a case to be made in favour as clearly the money has to come from somewhere.

I'd also say that there was some slight unfortunate timing in my earlier post, in that yours wasn't on the page when I started typing it out, and while it appears just below I wasn't referring to you specifically when I wrote that (as I was unaware then of what you'd said).

I'd further say that I've in the past bought microtransactions in games and now consider myself to have been part of the problem in those instances.

But there just comes a time when you have to say: no more. And for me, this is it.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby eVoL » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:59 pm

As I've said before, cosmetic micros that mean free maps are fucking awesome. So for once I'm with DJ :lol:
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Mantis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:04 pm

eVoL wrote:As I've said before, cosmetic micros that mean free maps are fucking awesome. So for once I'm with DJ :lol:


Cosmetic micros where you are given a price up front and you pay money knowing exactly what you're buying? Yeah, I'm totally on board with that.

Hell, a F2P shooter where every gun is a quid and you just buy what guns you want to use is an alright model to me.

But unregulated random chance drops that encourage slot machine mentality? Fuck that right off forever please. Valve started all this with purchasing keys for crates on CS, TF2 and DotA2; Blizzard really kicked it into overdrive last year when they added paid loot crates to Overwatch. Now everyone is getting a piece. I used to work within the gambling industry and I know the full extent to how low these devious fucks will go to try and drain every last penny from you under the illusion that you're having fun when really all they're trying to do is get you hooked. EA are rightly facing the biggest backlash against things so far because few publishers have so brazenly linked ingame advantages to paid random crates in a premium title.

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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby DjchunKfunK » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:04 pm

You've become their customer, you're giving them revenue and profits off an activity which will only encourage them to continue with, you can't just wash your hands of it at that point and take the stance "Well, it's not my fault they're doing this".


Again you are conflating bad practices with all examples of microtransactions.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront 2

Postby Mantis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:06 pm

Perhaps I should have edited all instances of the word 'microtransaction' to 'paid loot crates' because I get the feeling that we're having two separate arguments in this thread. -_-

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